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Laura:

Welcome back to another episode of the PMO strategies podcast. I am your host Laura Barnard and today we’re talking about trends in the field of project management, what’s to come, what you need to know, and how you can get involved and to do this wonderful episode about all things project management and Agile, I had to have Jesse fuel here today. Jesse is an author, coach and trainer who helps senior leaders from Boston to Bangalore transform their organizations worldwide. As a project management pioneer, he founded and grew the original PMI Agile community of practice to 18,000 members and 40 volunteer leaders. He’s also co-created the PMI ACP Agile certification and coauthored the Agile practice guide, which has been translated into 11 languages. A global entrepreneur, he has distilled his remote leadership experiences in the handbook: ‘Can you hear me now? Working with global distributed virtual teams’. He’s also a graduate of Johns Hopkins university.

Laura:
He is a dual certified enterprise coach and a leadership circle profile and an accredited instructor with four distinct Agile certification bodies. So as you can see, he is, at least in my book, Mr. Agile.  I’d also like to share how you and I know each other and we’ve had a lot of fun together over the last couple of years.

Jesse:

Oh yeah, a lot of fun. Just like I think whenever, whenever you and I get together it’s like thunder and lightning on the stage. Motivating, inspiring people having impact. It’s, it’s a blast.

Laura:

Oh yeah, for sure. And what Jesse’s talking about is that we do some workshops together. He’s been a part of the PMO impact summit the last couple of years and we have a keynote we do together called: ‘Can’t we just all get along’ and it’s all about the us and them battle between Agile and PMOs and people just love it because it really, you know, makes fun of and is entertaining, but also really gets people to think differently about this battle we are fighting between Agile and PMOs and project management. Right Jesse?

Jesse:

Which is the wrong conversation!

Laura:

Exactly right. So that’s what we do on the stage. And we did it most recently with project con in 2019 and then we also just did it with the PMI PMO symposium in the winter of 2019 and I gotta tell you, I just heard from PMI that they absolutely loved it and it was one of the best, most highly rated sessions of the whole conference because it was entertaining and also inspiring and helped people think differently about the conversations they’re having and switch gears and have some of those better conversations we know they need to be having.

Jesse:
Yeah. People I think appreciate being challenged to a higher-level order of thinking. Everybody needs some nuts and bolts and some of the X’s and O’s. But at the end of the day, the question that a lot of PMO leaders are asking is, what’s my mission? Why am I here? Why should I get up in the morning? And I admire you, Laura for the work that you do and answering that question for thousands of leaders across the world. So, I’m excited to be here and share with everybody what’s going on out there in the world.

Laura:
So with that, I want to let everyone know why I had you on here today, because you have some inside information. You’re a member of the development team for the next version of the project management body of knowledge, our beloved PMBoK and I am sure that my audience is curious to know what’s to come, and you’re the best person to talk to about all that because there’s multiple aspects to this as we talk about. There’s all the conversations around Agile and how that’s been pulled into PMI, so we’re going to talk about what that’s all about. And then also, just generally with the next version of the PMBoK, what can we expect, how can people get involved? And by the way, all of you listening there is a way, if you’re listening to this during the January, February, 2020 timeframe, there is a way to get involved. So, make sure you stick around for that. You ready to dive in, Jesse?

Jesse:
Well, I mean there’s a lot to cover and this is all very big changes, so we got to get into it. Let’s get started.

Laura:
Wow. Okay. All right. So first let’s talk Agile. So, some people say that that 2017 PMBoK, the sixth edition had kind of this hodgepodge or clumsy kind of version of Agile coverage. Can you talk a little bit about what happened there with that kind of separate book that was added onto the PMBoK?

Jesse:

Yeah, it turns out there’s a grain of truth to that criticism because far as the timeline is concerned, that’s kind of what happened. The sixth edition was moving along on schedule. It was reflecting the latest techniques and the latest ways of working in the field of project management. And then when it went to the public exposure draft, people were saying, where’s all the Agile? I mean, I see you mentioned it once in this chapter, once in this chapter and Agile is kind of a thing now. And that was the proverbial line in the sand that said that told PMI, okay, it’s time for us to have a formal answer for this. And I give them credit for waiting. I give them credit for waiting cause, cause that came out in 2017 and the Agile movement was formalized in 2001. So, 16 years was an appropriate amount of time for them to sit back and wait to see whether this was nearly a fad, nearly a technique, or a permanent seismic shift in the field.

And because they waited, they got to wait and see what were the established parts of the conversation. And so, I was privileged along with Mike Griffiths to write essentially an appendix for the sixth edition that discussed Agile methods in a very concentrated fashion. And it kind of was tacked onto the project, late in the, in the project schedule. So, it took a lot of work on behalf of PMI and the volunteer team,  Cindy Dionisio was chairing that as well, in order to respond to the market. And then it was that same impetus that formed the relationship with the Agile Alliance. That’s right, ladies and gentlemen, the Deathstar PMI and the rebel Alliance coming together to form the Agile practice guide. So, all of that happened in 2017 as a direct response to your involvement, as a direct response to the community saying, hey, this is not a part time thing, this Agile thing. This is very common, it’s very important for a lot of people and we need to have a coherent message around it. So that was essentially the overarching narrative of how it came to be. I, for one, impressed that they responded, pleased that I got a chance to be a part of it. And that’s, I think an important milestone in the conversation of how project management has been evolving and hasn’t stopped since, there’s other stuff that’s going on as well.

Laura:
Oh yeah, for sure. So, I agree with you. I think that it was kudos to PMI, such a big organization, that has so many steps in a process to follow in order to even create a PMBoK and so much quality control, thank goodness, right? And they still responded, they still took the time to at least start going down the Agile path and say, hey, we’ve heard you, we heard your voice, we heard what you need to know. And that, by the way, is particularly important to understand that PMI does listen. So, when we talk about how you can get involved in giving your feedback for this next version, take it. Because if you don’t contribute, if you don’t take that time, you have no voice and no opportunity to say, well, I wish it would’ve included this. At least put your message out there. And I’m really glad that people did and that PMI listened and that we have what we have now. which is some guidance, and by the way, also an Agile certification. And like you said, there’s so much more to come. So, when I was at the PMI PMO symposium, I had the chance to talk to our new PMI CEO Sunil and we talked little bit about this
model of acquisition and that PMI acquired a few Agile organizations lately such as Disciplined Agile. Can you talk to us about what that means, what that looked like and what the impact might be of that on PMI and their certifications as a whole?

Jesse:

So the mentioning of Sunil is important because he has been rather public, going on record as saying things are going to change. And has done a couple of things that could be complimented as bold moves around transforming the organization. The most obvious of course is the brand refresh. And now granted we had that coming, cause it’s the 50th anniversary. And so that was the most obvious. But these acquisitions represent, I think a transformative move. It’s one thing for us to grow a new and unique take on the Agile movement. It’s another thing to embrace what’s already there. Yeah, I think that’s impressive. So they reached out to disciplined Agile guys and discuss with them about how their Agile message aligns with PMI. And what’s really interesting about disciplined Agile, it’s not a methodology, right? It’s instead a methodology selector. It’s intentionally designed to be a toolkit of different tools to choose from. And there’s a selector tool that helps you figure out what kind of Agile, how much Agile for your situation. And that resonated with PMI as a steward of different tools and toolkits rather than an advocator of a single methodology, which the PMBoK is not. It’s commonly a misunderstanding and misinterpretation of it. And, and so that that message alignment was one that resonated with them. And then Disciplined Agile already had a very provocative spokesperson in the way of Scott Ambler, the creator of the method who has written dozens of books on the topic.

And I thought it was pretty interesting that they decided to reach out to that group and that name as a way to promote an alternative message. And Scott has always been an alternative voice in the Agile community who likes to poke holes in a lot of the dogma. There’s so much dogma out there and I think that also is where PMI wants to go. PMI wants to start poking holes in dogma, particularly its own dogma and the community that we all get wrapped around with, that says, where are my process groups? My 5 process groups, my 13 knowledge areas, and that is all changing. It’s all changing. So those are a couple of reasons why I think they pick them out as a way to align with the future direction of the Institute and the community.

Laura:
Yeah. So, there’s so much in there that we need to unpack. First of all, I just want to say I couldn’t agree more with Sunil and this approach he’s taking to make change and big change. And I just felt myself saying be still my beating heart, he’s speaking my language, because we started talking about outcomes over outputs and return on investment and making business decisions. And that project management is a vehicle for making business decisions and creating business outcomes and I just loved it.  I have so much respect for someone like that that’s willing to come into an organization who has a deep rooted history in the PMBoK way, and the PMI way, and be willing and brave enough to shake things up and kind of bring PMI where it needs to go in order to stay relevant and a leader in the future of project management and project discipline and that kind of thing.

When I say project management, again for all of you listening, you guys know this, I’m not talking about a particular implementation methodology. Project management is what we use as a mechanism to deliver on these business outcomes. And there are many ways to do that and we could totally go down a rabbit hole on that, because people say and think of project management as a waterfall concept, but it’s not. Agile, and using Agile implementation methodologies is a way to manage and deliver your projects. So, with all that said, I think what Sunil’s doing is wonderful. I’m thrilled that you’re a part of all of that. I am excited to hear that there’s even more coming and I also love that people are starting to finally realize, and we’ll definitely deep dive on this in a future episode, but I’m glad people are starting to finally understand that Agile isn’t some mystifying kind of concept over off in the corner doing their own thing.

Agile also isn’t a one size fits all. Agile is, quite frankly common sense in a lot of what we do and if anybody actually reads the Agile manifesto, they will see every bit of that is common sense. And you and I have talked about that and then can talk about that at length. And you and I were just talking about before we started this recording that in fact my entire IMPACT Engine PMO program and philosophy is an Agile approach to implementing a PMO so that it sticks, so that it evolves with the pace of change that it needs to for an organization.

Jesse:

There’s a lot of opportunity for classically trained project managers to add value in an adaptive and iterative fashion. And likewise, I think a lot of Agile practitioners out there have something to be learned about the core project management skills of integration management, like pulling all the pieces together or forecasting as a way to set direction and vision. And, and there’s some interesting conversations that are happening now these days where the community is starting to integrate these, not into either or, but rather hybrid, I think, has taken over as the default approach to integrate and synthesize these ideas and concepts as opposed to the, either we do it this way or that way bi-modal buzzword. So yeah, the acquisition and the direction that PMI is moving is all reflective of this shift in the industry. So in 2017, they responded to the community by adding Agile into the PMBoK guide and now they’re responding to the community by going out and seeking what are the right tools, the right people and the right messaging that aligns to the Institute’s message.

So, it’s not just Disciplined Agile, they also acquired Flex Net Objectives. Alan Shalloway, is another also provocative voice in the Agile community. And, both of the Disciplined Agile and the Flex conversation are really are about looking at the big picture and looking about context and context is King. So, don’t go copy pasting your Agile from Spotify. Don’t go copy pasting your Agile from Scrum, but actually sit down and spend some time thinking about what about this textbook approach should we tailor… what, do project managers tailor their processes? Yes, that’s what we do. So, all of that is aligning a lot, especially cause that’s where the industry is moving. There’s a talking point that I think every PMO leader should embrace for their senior leadership and that is that never before in the history of mankind have we seen as much change as we are seeing today. It is a new point in human history. Put another way, change has changed. And in fact you can take that statement and reverse it and say never again will the pace of change be as slow as it is today. Just dwell on that for a minute. Never again, will a pace of change be as slow as it. So let’s talk about how we can rethink the entire concept of project management to do what we do well and adapt. This is important stuff that’s been going on for us to be paying attention to.

Laura:
I am so glad to finally hear it. I have been talking to my audience and my students about this concept of continuous improvement and how, I don’t think we’re in a world of continuous improvement anymore. I think we’re in a world of continuous evolution and things are just moving so quickly that we are constantly in a state of evolving in every aspect of everything we do and how we do it. And so being able to have an organization like PMI talk about that and put forward this pace of change and how we need to develop our project managers to be much more evolutionary leaders as opposed to following a particular process. And that means being able to, at any point in time, no matter where you are in your project, being able to look up for that forest, get out of the trees and say, are we doing what we need to do to best achieve our outcomes? And if not, we must shift and we must do it now. And I think that’s really turning a lot of the historical way we think about project management on its head. And that’s why I think Agile has been able to be so successful. And you know, there is some debate as to how successful, right it was some of that transformation work.

So, that’s definitely something we’ll be diving deeper into this summer when we talk about your book. Hint hint, that’ll be so exciting, I can’t wait. But anyway, I think there’s an important conversation that needs to happen. I’m glad you and I are having it. I’m glad PMI is having it. I’m glad people around the world, some of these changemakers, these people that are not afraid to ruffle some feathers to say what needs to be said. I kind of resonate with that remark in the PMO space. So, I’m glad that’s all happening and I am excited for PMBoK seven. So, can we talk about that a little bit? I know that you’re helping with the next version of the PMBoK, you’re part of that development team and there are some big changes coming. So I know you can’t really talk about the whole thing, but can you tell us a little bit more about what changes we might expect?

Jesse:
Absolutely. There’s a couple of critical points and in the show notes, that come with the podcast, Laura is going to put a couple of links. One of them is going to be the official 10 minute overview video that describes what kind of changes are going on there. So, if you want to hear the official videos story, you can click on that. But here’s the executive summary, which is we’re moving away from processes to principals, away from print to digital and away from a project manager to a project management team.

Jesse:
So that’s kind of like the key points. First, let’s talk about the fact that the PMBoK, the current version, the sixth edition, is over 600 pages long. Oh, by the way, this is what I’m supposed to study to pass a test or this is what I’m supposed to study as my baseline for a project management approach! And it’s static, right? Because it’s print, it’s stuck in time and so how do we reflect the fact that this discipline is a profession that we’ve embraced, is ever expanding? I know just to tack on another 200 pages, well that’s not sustainable and so because the current modality of the PMBoK is crumbling underneath its own weight, it is moving from print to digital and what that means is that there will indeed be a book called the project management body of knowledge, an ANSI standard, that is going to go through the ANSI vetting process that will invite you to participate in at the end of the show, but that’s only going to end up being 150-200 pages.

Laura:
Wow. What!

Jesse:
The rest of it will be online. It’ll be an online library of an entire project management toolkit, methods, models, artifacts, all the things that you can think of and use, and it’ll be organized in a way that it’s accessible and find-able. There’ll be little guides and job aides example of how to kind of go about this stuff. They’re also writing fresh new content around tips and tricks about using a particular approach or idea. And so, there’s going to be a completely new web presence that PMI is rolling out. It’s called standards plus and there are already members that are offering feedback and taking a look at it and so that way, a couple of things. One is that now the guide is we know it will be focusing on the core message of project management and all of the nuts and bolts will now live in a dynamically updated living database of tools and techniques that are available. So that’s a pretty exciting and provocative change for my money. I don’t know. What do you think?

Laura:
Holy cow. That’s what I think!  So, it’s interesting because I have a membership community that provides a lot of that content now because it’s missing in, the PMI space for example. And frankly I was just talking to one of our clients who were doing some PMP certification training for and they said, hey, by the way, you guys should read the PMBoK before we start class will classes in two weeks. And I was like, I don’t know if you want to read the whole 600 plus pages in the next couple of weeks, cause that’s a lot! But it would be a completely different world to have PMI providing those kinds of resources that myself and others in the industry have created ourselves because it hasn’t existed. So that’s actually pretty cool because then from the practitioner’s perspective, they have a place they can go to and get those resources that are in alignment and they know they’re in alignment with that project management body of knowledge.

At the same time, I’m also thinking, Oh, I want to make sure that they include this, that and the other that I know that I’m providing, that seems to be missing now, right? Things around how do you evaluate the IMPACT, the real IMPACT, the return on investment you’re creating for projects? How do you measure your success on those projects? Not just the quote unquote benefits realization process. Because again, another rabbit hole, I could go down and they’ve heard it from me, all of my folks that listen to my podcast, benefits is only part of the equation. You have to make sure the benefits were worth it, so I love all that around the worth of factor in return on investment and all those things that people should be thinking about and that stuff is currently missing. So, I’m super excited to hear that PMI is going in this direction. I think it’s awesome that they’re going to have a much smaller guide and then a bunch of resources. I’m also extremely curious how they’re going to handle things like PMP certification, if what you’re learning is as much a much smaller body of knowledge, but then you have all of these other resources that you go after. So that’ll be very interesting.

Jesse:
True, true. That announcement was made in previous websites and conferences that the PMP certification and the PMP exam is itself being completely reworked and redone. The exam and the PMP certification will no longer be based on the PMBOK guide period. Yeah, well now, gone are the days where you memorize that initiate project planning must precede the alignment or approval of project charters. All of that stuff is no longer going to be related to a PMP anymore. Instead, the PMP is going to be based on the talent triangle. That same talent triangle that that looks to grow the skills of project managers and their business skills, their leadership soft skills and their technical planning skills. So that’s where that is going. Now I want to go back to your point about value and benefits are only part of the equation.

It sounds like you somehow are a mind reader and you picked up on the first of the core principles that are going to be emphasized. So I alluded to earlier, the other big change is that PMI is recognizing that project management has become so robust, so expansive that it is evolved beyond any single set of processes and now the guidance that a project manager needs to follow is more along the lines of core principles. Example would be focus on value. Another one would be an example would be when it comes to risk management, balance risks and opportunities. And so those core principles have just been released and the exposure draft in addition to what’s called the value delivery system. And so that word system refers to the organizational system and the organizational ecosystem is more than just, finish the project.

Yeah. Finish the project on time, on budget, on schedule. It’s more than that. And what’s the difference between outputs versus outcomes? What’s the difference between benefits versus value, versus strategy? And this is, I think, the first time that PMI is taking a crack at putting a coherent narrative about why we do what we do, why do we do projects at all? And so that in conjunction with some core principles, is intended to help modern project managers move beyond any single toolkit. Cause that’s the trap we always fall into is my methodology, that methodology because you know, is it the model or method one or you know, insert Tab A into slot B. So that’s the other big change that’s happening. And that’s the one where there’s an opportunity for you to take a look at it, right now as of January 15th, 2020 and offer some initial thoughts and feedback.

Laura:
I cannot wait and it is about time. That is all I’ve been talking about for a couple of decades now in my own experience of what works and what doesn’t. And Jesse, you’ve heard me say it a gazillion times. My audiences now heard me say it on, I don’t know, every single one of the podcast episodes or on the stages are everywhere else they find me and my courses. I am so excited to hear all of that and that’s why I wanted to make sure that you and I had this conversation and that we get everyone else excited about the opportunity this presents for project managers around the world. And I’m always saying if you’re a project manager, you need to get rid of that title and turn it into impact driver. And the reason I talk about being an impact driver is that it’s about getting to that IMPACT.

It’s about understanding value, not just benefits. And it’s not really about managing the work as much as it is getting to the outcomes. And of course, management has to happen to get to those outcomes. But again, it’s the forest for the trees conversation. So, I am super excited. So, there’s a couple of other things I want to talk about before we tell people how they can get involved. One thing that you and I’ve talked a lot about and had some really great debates and discussions around, is this chatter about companies moving from projects to products. Can we talk about that a little bit and what that means to you and what that looks like to you? And you know, you and I talked about this a good bit and I’m just curious to your take if you want to share your take on all this projects versus products conversation that’s been happening.

Jesse:
Yes it is a little bit disconcerting for many because they feel like it is a direct assault on their job and on their profession. And some cases it’s true. I recently just had a piece on this in PM network magazine where I discussed some of the core things to be around us. The first thing to understand is that this is not about dispensing with common sense. So common sense would be that a project is a project. It is an undertaking with an intended direction. And, in fact the word project comes from the stem to project into the future, an intended outcome. And that concept has been around since the dawn of humankind, it’s not going away. Rather instead of the textbook definition about a unique endeavor with a concrete unique output, it, we’re talking more about the traditions, the project name, the corporate traditions.

And so for example, the corporate tradition is, I’m going to be held accountable as a project manager not to, whether only to getting something done on time, on budget, and with no regard as to whether it should have been done in the first place. That is no longer in today’s dynamic changing world and acceptable boundary to draw. Today’s project managers are absolutely being, held accountable to business value. Another one is, I’m no longer going to be limited in accountability to time, coasts, measuring, measuring scope, schedule, cost. Now metrics that matter. So, okay, if I’m held accountable to value, how do I measure that? That is a nontrivial question. How do you measure value? And instead of answering the question, people are gonna ask. People ask us as project manager, what does it cost? Now there are more and more. They’re asking us what is it worth or is it worth it?

Yes, you told me you’re the project manager. Is this project worth it? And then it is no longer okay for a project manager to say, you know what, it’s not my job. My job is to do stuff. No, your job has just become more strategic than it ever has been. And so there’s that expectation. But there’s also some traditions. The one tradition is, we finish a project, we blow up the team and we send people off on their merry way and we just lost a whole lot of institutional knowledge and organizational goodness with that team. So, what if we instead had stable teams that consumed work and each amount of work becomes the project, not the team. And so these are some of the concepts that were being challenged as a profession and as a community to expand our accountability and to expand our influence and our  IMPACT on organizations and investments. And so, in one sense, so the hashtag no projects or the from projects to products is, is a nice provocative handle. But I think it’s something for project managers to get excited about the strategic pivot of there profession, as opposed to something to push back against. And hopefully that might shift the way that the conversation is being framed for you.

Laura:
Absolutely. And another example of it’s about time for us to be having those conversations because, that’s one of the biggest things that I hear, where I refer to this concept called the Yeah but, monster.  Somebody will say, yeah, but I don’t have that kind of authority, when I’ll challenge them and push them and I’ll do my IMPACT Driver course or my IMPACT Driver presentation, they say, but I’m just a project manager. I don’t have that authority. I’m just responsible for the project. I’m just responsible for doing the tasks and making sure that everyone does the work and I’ve been challenging them for years to step up, step out of that role and understand that there’s a much bigger picture and a much more strategic conversation that they can be a part of, but they have to be able to step up out and look around and shift their mindset. That’s the whole IMPACT model is about shift in mindsets and there’s six mindsets, the letters of IMPACT, that are all about getting them to that place that they need to be. That’s the whole point, is that there are mindset shifts that you need to make to get away from this project thinking and getting into much more of a business outcomes mindset. And that’s to me with this whole projects to products movement is all about.

Jesse:
yeah. One of the corollaries of this is the role of the project. And the role of the project manager traditionally is that of this is the single point of contact, the center of gravity, the sole single organizer and coordinator. And what we’re seeing in the industry is that project management has expanded beyond the purview of a single project manager. We’re seeing more and more that project management activities are being performed by a broader array of people involved in a project. And there’s a variety of  titles and a variety of job descriptions, whether it’s called the product manager who does a little bit more of the business and value oriented stuff or it’s a scrum master who tends to have a lot more soft skills and cares a little bit more about the internal cohesiveness of the delivery team      , or if it’s a PMO manager, suddenly now as a PMO manager, am I in delivery activities, am I working in the business or on the business?

Well, many times for PMO managers it’s both. Or is it a product owner? And then what’s the difference between a product owner and a product manager and there is a lot of conflict. I’m sure you’re seeing in the PMOs you work with today about what’s my job and what’s not your job and where do we draw the lines? And the answer is different every single time. And we need to be ready as project managers or project leaders of any title, to be willing to have a collaborative conversation about, okay, what do you expect of me? What do you need of me, relative to that business analyst, relative to that team lead. Because it turns out in today’s world our projects are so complex, dynamic and intertwined that everyone’s doing some kind of project management activity and we just need to embrace it and play a leadership role in helping the rising tide lift all the boats instead of being the sole single practitioner, purveyor of project management. Which works in some contexts and worked a lot more frequently a while ago, but not in today’s world where projects are more interdependent and dynamic going on.

Laura:
Exactly. Especially with that pace of change and needing to keep up with it, this constant evolution. Okay. So, we’re giving people a good sneak peek as to what’s coming. And I encourage all of you listening to start thinking a little bit about how you are going to shift the way you operate as a PMO leader, as a project manager, program portfolio manager, anyone that’s involved in the project space, now’s the time to start making some of those shifts in your mindset and the way you operate because it’s coming. And this is your warning at the beginning of 2020, come back to this episode at the beginning of 2021 when that new PMBoK is out, and you’ll see that a lot of this was being foreshadowed and we’re sharing with you what’s coming. So, start thinking about what things you need to do differently. You can always reach out to us here at PMO Strategies to talk about how you can take your career, where it needs to go to be at the forefront of becoming what I call an IMPACT Driver. And if you want to be a part of the conversation with this version of the PMBoK, Jesse, let’s tell them how they can do that, how they can get involved from January 15th to February 14th right?

Jesse:
Yes. It’s a very simple website. Go to ed.pmi.org and that ED stands for exposure draft. So just go to the exposure draft website, ed.pmi.org and log in with your PMI account and start taking a look at what’s there and offer some comments and some feedback. This is it. This is the one month window of opportunity for the community to either encourage and validate or correct the initial content that’s being put together.

Laura:
And as we know from the last version of the PMBoK and that Agile guide that was added onto that, they do listen. So everyone, if you’ve got some thoughts, if you want to know what’s coming, go check it out. If you agree, if you disagree, please share your input and your feedback. We are speaking here with Jesse, one of the people that’s developing that next version of the PMBOK and he wants to know, the team wants to know what you have to say and what you think.

Jesse:
Yes, yes. It’s awesome. Pay attention to the show notes. There’s a couple of other fun links, but Laura, thank you so much for having the conversation. It’s always a treat.

Laura:
Thank you Jesse so much for being here today and as I have kind of alluded to, there’s going to be some upcoming episodes where we’re going to dive deeper on this whole Agile thing and we’re going to be talking about this awesome book that you’re writing right now. I am looking forward to having those conversations in the coming months. Thank you again for being here. Thank you for being a part of my community and thank you for helping me make a bigger impact in all things PMO, project management. Have a great day.